http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/ User submitted comments to Practical Ecommerce's article entitled Quick Query: PayPal Exec On Payment Disputes en-us Copyright 2007 Confluence Publishing Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:55:25 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/rss/ Practical Ecommerce v2.0.1 Ecommerce kmurdock@practicalecommerce.com bgetting@practicalecommerce.com 60 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment9589 As a buyer PayPal does nothing if the seller ships something and it is "not as described". PayPal then favors the seller no matter what is shown. Selllers an buyers need to boycott paypal. Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:55:25 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment9589 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment9254 PayPal has helped my business grow by leaps and bounds! I did have a merchant account and was accepting credit cards worldwide. I soon learned I could make more sells and sell auctions for higher amounts If I did indeed accept PayPal! I soon canceled my merchant account and have been using PayPal ever since. I feel PayPal has been very fair with the very few disputes I have had and I have received fast service with no problems. I highly recommend PayPal! Danna Crawford, aka: PowerSellingMom.com Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:22:56 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment9254 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8945 The problem is paypal has to comply with all the laws of every state and the regulations set by credit card companies. They have to take a middle of the road approach to everything. This is what hurts the sellers because they have to error on the part of the buyer. Paypal and eBay both give more power to the buyers. For example look at eBays foolish system with the new feedback ratings. They decided that you can be a power seller if you have 4.5 in all the categories. Also, they state that you have to have at least 4.6 or 4.7 to qualify for listing discounts. What a joke. I had 4.7 on shipping charges since they started the program. Soon as they created thre discount policy my shipping charge rating falls to 4.5 thus disqualifying me. Soon buyers will be using negative feedback as blackmail. If a buyer can leave negative a seller should be allowed also. I can go on like all the others that posted above and telling you horror stories. I wish paypal would take a postal... Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:01:53 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8945 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8844 Ok. So don't use eBay. Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:18:07 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8844 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8713 EBay is now forcing their UK sellers to accept Paypal and it won't be long before they try it with their US site. They have already banned the use of Google checkout to stifle any competiton to Paypal and are now forcing new sellers to accept Paypal. How is that legal? They are tying Paypal in with eBay, which is a violation of the Sherman Act. If a new seller does not have a valid Paypal account, they cannot sell on eBay. That's a tying arrangement, plain and simple. They are currently being sued for anti-trust violations, but they have been dragging that case out for over a year now. Hopefully, the judge hearing that case will realize what eBay is doing is illegal and put an end to it. Tying arrangements of any kind are illegal, period. Wed, 09 Apr 2008 15:37:46 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8713 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8718 We are in the middle of a chargeback dispute with Paypal now. We sent customers order on shrunk wrapped pallet- waybill shows weight. Customer Signs for pallet. Weeks later says the pallet was short over 100 pcs. Files dispute with PP. PP investigates and reverses the chargeback in our favor. Buyer then files dispute with CC company. PP reverses chargeback, and holds money. PP then closes case, saying we had lost the appeal with CC company. refunds buyer amount of missing product. We provide online proof of delivery. We are appealing to PP as our agent to provide us with documentation from for a copy of the buyer's police report for missing items ( as stated in PP policy) or other documentation that pallet was short. PP is supposed to act as the buyer's agent, but all We see is they only go thru the motions. If all else fails, we will ask PP for buyers credit card company and take it up a notch, or have to send a legal notice to PP, and Gov't agencies. Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:56:29 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8718 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8710 I had a problem with Paypal. Customer claims wrong side. She said she would need a contractor for adjustments to the cabinets. I said I would pay if she send me a copy of the estimate. Customer said no she won't send the estimate. She later said if I want a estimate,she will charge me $200.00 more. I said no, but still send me a copy of the estimate. She went to Paypal ,I told them I would pay with an estimate. Paypal gave her the money, no estimate. I quit Ebay. Wed, 09 Apr 2008 12:26:03 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8710 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8709 Can this be forworded to Paypal? I would love to see a rebuttal in the next article. Wed, 09 Apr 2008 12:04:28 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8709 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8701 I had a horrible experience as a buyer with Ebay and Paypal. Bought a laptop and, after the transaction had been "completed" I received an email from Ebay saying that the seller was a fraud and had hacked into someone else's account. Ah that explains why seller wanted me to wire funds! No I'm not that dense - I insisted on Paypal with all their "protection." Well turns out Paypal held over $600 in their hands and wouldn't return it to me even after I offered to show them the proof from Ebay that the transaction was fraudulent! Their policy at the time - it stays in the sellers account for 31 days and if it isn't claimed by the seller you get it back... Yes, I waited 31 days to see if the hackers would be able to get into the Paypal account they told me to send funds to... 31 days!!! Lucky for me the money wasn't claimed. And, as the owner of a large web development company I NEVER worked with a customer who insisted on Paypal as method of payment. I just sent them to... Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:19:06 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8701 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8692 I agree with the above, but what options would you recommend to the seller to help. Is someone offering a competitor we could try as merchants or at least a more secure system.... seems easy, but not heard of any?? Thanks Wed, 09 Apr 2008 06:20:40 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8692 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8695 I have used PayPal for about 5 years now & never had a problem. Every dispute, which there have only been 3 or 4 has been won by me. It's not hard to prove your case. You don't need to pay the $30.00 customs fees for UPS for any other service. Just use the customs form (FREE) from the USPS for International orders. It's a US Federal Document that stands up in any court, therefore by law eBay & PayPal are REQUIRED to accept it as proof of shipment. Read the fine print, you only need proof that the item was shipped, not that the item actually reached it's final destination. YOU CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING THAT GETS CAUGHT UP IN CUSTOMS. And remember, it doesn't get caught up in US Customs, it gets caught up in the Customs Agency of the DESTINATION COUNTRY. It is up to the customer to check with their customs office to find out what the disposition of the package is. It is up to the customer to pay any additional fees that may be associated with the shipment. NOT THE... Wed, 09 Apr 2008 06:20:30 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8695 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8679 Quoting some old Saturday Night Live show, "Were the phone company, we don't have to give a D***" Now, it should be "Were eBay/Paypal, we don't have to give a D***" Wed, 09 Apr 2008 00:17:08 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8679 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8682 What other c/c merchant intergrates through ebay? Wed, 09 Apr 2008 00:16:55 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8682 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8666 I buy and sell on Ebay - and I use paypal for all my online business dealings. I had a legit complaint when I purchased a $100 book and received some dinky little thing. Seller agreed as the book was still on her desk, hubby had packaged the wrong book. She was going to get the right book in the mail right away. Three weeks pass, no news from the seller. Filed a 'significantly not as described' with ebay/paypal on the last possible day. To make a long story short. I received $30 of the $100 back with NO possibility of getting the rest as the seller's acccount was tapped out. Where is MY purchase guarantee from Paypal??? I will NEVER pay without a credit card anymore. THERE IS NO SECURITY FOR BUYERS EITHER when the seller has no money. They can deal with my credit card company. Tue, 08 Apr 2008 16:20:45 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8666 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8659 Has anyone had any experience with Google Checkout as a viable alternative? Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:42:43 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8659 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8656 I run a successful ecommerce website and would never dream of using PayPal as a payment option. I have had personal experience with PayPal treating a seller as "guilty until proven innocent" when a customer decided after they had used a kitchen appliance for almost a month that they just didn't need it anymore and filed a dispute with PayPal when I pointed out our return policy. They told PayPal that the item was "not as described" and PayPal automatically sided with the buyer. I think a better question for Colin Rule would have been "Are you aware of the current dissatisfaction merchants have with PayPal? If so, how does PayPal intend on addressing the issue... or will it be swept under the rug and be business as usual?" Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:31:21 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8656 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8655 As a buyer I once purchased a downloadable document template, needed it before the next morning as I was going out of the country. When the document didn't immediately download I sent an email to the seller saying that I needed it before the next morning and if I couldn't be delivered by then to cancel the order. Well, they emailed it the next afternoon - a time when I no longer neeeded it. They refused to refund the money so I contacted PayPal. PayPal said that since it was a downloadable purchase they couldn't offer a refund. I was really pissed at PayPal considering their reputation. Since I do spend a lot with them they eventually offered to refund me the money at their expense and not try to get it back from the seller. Well, the seller eventually refunded the money so I didn't need PayPal's one time refund. As a reseller I don't accept PayPal because of the horor stories I've heard. I've collected between $2 and $3 million using major credit cards and never had a... Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:21:30 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8655 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8654 I used PayPal for 2 years as an additional payment option for my customers. After two instances where PayPal reversed two charges and would not respond to my repeated attempts to find out why, I dropped them. PayPal is terrible for merchants. I have zero chargebacks with my regular merchant account, and will never use PayPal again as a payment option. I would urge any business to establish a merchant banking account and forget PayPal unless you want to give away money. Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:13:43 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8654 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8652 Based on comments here, it is obvious we as merchants, need to look for a better solution. How about readers posting reviews and comments on alternate providers. Is there a site which provides ratings for payment processing options ? Can Practical Ecommerce do a followup article covering the alternates.. And by the way thank you for shining a light on this dark corner of ecommerce (at least for legitimate merchants). Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:53:53 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8652 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8651 As a seller we had one chargeback experience with Paypal. We provided our info and had it reversed. While they did freeze the amount in question until they made a ruling, we felt like they actually did some evaluation and did not just automatically side with the buyer. They did charge $10 for some sort of Evaluation(?) Fee but that was better than we were treated by our credit card processor company the one time we had a similar situation. They did automatically side with the buyer and we never got our products back either. Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:51:37 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8651 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8650 Paypal protects itself first then buyers. At least with regular merchant accounts, you get more information on any dispute and you can actually talk to someone if need be. Paypal conducts super secret investigations and has never responded to any inquiries on a reversal. They do not want seller facts to interfere with their reversals. If your business life is in the hands of PayPal, your business life is on shaky ground. Any business requires real merchant accounts with V/MC, Amex and Discover. Paypal transactions should only be a tiny part of your sales or else, sooner or later, you will pay the price. Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:42:52 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8650 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8646 I have to agree with those above. I've used PayPal for my business since 2004 and they are great as long as you have no problems with the customer. I won one chargeback. Then, I had a customer who used a product and then said it didn't meet their needs. My return policy states that we don't accept returns on used merchandise. That should be enough for PayPal to say, "hey, customer, you should have read their return policy before you purchased..." What is our return policy for if nobody is going to abide by it? I lost that one, and luckily was able to get the $300 item back from the customer. With that chargeback, I got conflicting information back from PayPal, which makes me suspicious that nothing was done at all- they just gave it to the customer. Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:26:17 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8646 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8647 PayPal definitely does not support the sellers, which is ridiculous since I pay thousands of dollars in fees every month. Their new 'expanded seller protection' is a joke. As a seller, you are 'guilty' until proven innocent and only then will PayPal help you. The one good note is that after 10 years I finally have a paypal account manager (although they have no real authority). I am going to challenge paypal's policies though. According to the terms of MY sale, buyers have the option of choosing Insurance or not and they have the option of choosing a Trackable shipping method. I make it clear that only Express and UPS offer real tracking. Now in the terms of my sale, I say that a buyer expressly agrees to relieve me of all claims if they do not choose a Insured Trackable shipping method. In other words, if an international buyer chooses First Class International mail without insurance (which is generally the cheapest method) they are expressly agreeing to hold me... Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:26:09 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8647 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8648 I forgot to mention this. A few weeks ago, I learned a valuable lesson. When you sign up for PayPal, you see the tiered fees and the breaks you get at certain sales volume. I assumed that PayPal would adjust the fees accordingly as my sales went up. NOT! You have to go in and apply for "merchant rates" for your fee to go down. In a matter of 5 minutes, my rated dropped from 2.9% to 2.2%! Please research your fees and if you qualify, apply for merchant rates. This could save hundreds of dollars every month! Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:24:45 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8648 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8644 Many of us would be interested to know the numbers on chargebacks and disputes regarding service businesses, not just ecomm merchants. The burden of proof appears to lie with the seller (i.e. the "accused"). Is this fair? Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:13:42 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8644 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8642 Well, this is pretty scary. I have only a few eBay sales, and everything has worked okay so far. However, if I have a high-priced sale, I may consider other forms of payment instead of Paypal. I intended to use Paypal on my website, but now I have to stop and reconsider. I don't need more aggravation. Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:13:10 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8642 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8641 Paypal is awful for sellers, as is eBay. We were accused of selling counterfeit items (which was false) by a buyer and instead examining the proof we had that the items we were selling were legitimate, both our eBay and Paypal accounts were instantly frozen. This was our business, our livelihood and they slammed the door with no evidence except what a buy told them. The result? The buyer got their money back and was never required to return the item. And eBay banned us for an entire year, while Paypal saw fit to ban us FOREVER! They kept the money in our account for 6 months and then told us okay, you can have your money, but you can NEVER have another Paypal account. We are NOT thieves, but if we had the money we would have sued them for defamation. They ruined our online business and our reputation and cause many sleepless nights. I urge sellers to find another way. This kind of thing must not be allowed to happened to innocent people. Tue, 08 Apr 2008 08:42:41 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8641 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8634 I agree that PayPal does not have the merchants in their best interest, it's all about the customer. One thing PayPal is forgetting that we are a customer too. Without us as Merchants they wouldn't have gotten as big as they have. We had a chargeback come to us THREE months after the initial transaction saying it was fraudulent. When I contacted PayPal about it and asked why it took so long for them to realize that it was "Fraudulent" they told me that I had to go back to the Buyer. Tried that but the phone and the email address that the customer had given us were invalid or disconnected. Took this to my lawyer to address the customer and was told I couldn't do much else since PayPal was not willing to look into it any further. To say the least we are disappointed with PayPal and very wary about taking PayPal Payments that have been verified by PayPal. Tue, 08 Apr 2008 08:27:42 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8634 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8636 Paypal is not at all good for the merchants. There are so many instances when even when we had delivered the digital product and there was a proof of delivery, even then Paypal has fully refunded the amount. Its a big big cheating. Tue, 08 Apr 2008 08:26:48 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8636 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8630 We sell electronic goods like books and videos in electronic form. PayPal's seller protection policy excludes electronic goods, which leaves every sale vulnerable to a chargeback, even if we can prove the customer downloaded the product. In one case PayPal, not the customer, initiated a chargeback. PayPal's so-called investigation apparently skipped the fact that the customer was happy with the products he bought from us. After I talked with the customer over the phone, it became clear to both of us that PayPal had become a terrible interference in the buyer-seller relationship. The customer is a great guy and voluntarily re-purchased the items from us....that was the only way to reverse the chargeback. One last thing...we now offer Google Checkout as an option to our buyers. They don't have a seller protection policy either for electronic goods, but at least their fees are lower (or free, in our case). Tue, 08 Apr 2008 07:51:15 -0600 http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/709/Quick-Query-PayPal-Exec-On-Payment-Disputes/#comment8630